Malaysia Veterinary Forum (Archive)

babyvee · Joined: 25 Feb 2008 Posts: 5

hi everyone! i'm a teenager who's had her dog for the past five years. my darling xena is a salt and pepper miniature schnauzer and i bought her from her previous owners, who mistreated her and stuffed cigarette butts on her neck because they couldn't stand her barking! she is my dog entirely, and my family plays with her sometimes but i am the one who cleans her, bathes her, feeds her, walks her, plays with her and basically loves her to bits!

the thing is, we had this huge garden in our old house where xena could bark to her heart's content and run around playfully. now, my family and i have moved to a condo, where she can still run around but the condo has strict rules that we must adhere to. we have been given a warning letter about her 'loud and rather harsh bark', that she disturbs the neighbours and everything. i didn't know what to do until a few days ago when a couple of friends told me about debarking surgery. and after much thought and deliberation, i have decided to go ahead with it because i know that if i part with xena, i would miss her terribly and everything..

please don't tell me that debarking is horribly cruel and everything.. i think it's for the best because me and xena are inseperable and she is simply irreplacable. what i really want to know is, where can i get debarking surgery done (like, specifically..) and how much does it usually cost? i can go to anywhere within KL and Selangor but i dont think i can go much farther.. please help me, as i really don't want to part with my darling xena..

acsyen · Joined: 10 Jan 2008 Posts: 94

Of cos it is cruel. If you really love her then have you heard of such a thing called training? If possible you need a behavior correctal person to help you out. Debarking doesn't mean that she will not have any noise at all. Sometimes it turned out much more irritating than before. What you going to do then? Put it to sleep?

Correcting the problem is always the better option. If you need any leads in this feel free to email me at acs_yen@hotmail.com and hope we can work out some ways to help you. i do know some behavior correctal trainers here. try posting this in puppy . com and get more opinions on training. Loving a dog also means to give training to them other than food and shelter.

babyvee · Joined: 25 Feb 2008 Posts: 5

but thats the thing, she's already been trained, both by me and a prof trainer. shes very obedient, but she cannot keep quiet 100% of the time, so at the times when she does bark, its too loud for other neighbours and THAT is why im considering debarking because even now we are still told to either quieten her down or get rid of her..

minimocha · Joined: 26 Feb 2008 Posts: 2

Have you tried the collars that will discourage dogs from barking? What about bitter apple? Vinegar + water? And ultrasound controls?

babyvee · Joined: 25 Feb 2008 Posts: 5

yes, ive tried the collar. it irritated her and it made her try to bark even more.. do explain to me what is bitter apple/ ultrasound controls pls. vinegar + water did not help at all!

acsyen · Joined: 10 Jan 2008 Posts: 94

Dogs are meant to bark. There's always a reason why they bark. Have you tried finding out he cause. She is trained but does she know the command 'Quiet' ? I have many doubts on so called professional trainers. Have you posted your query on puppy.com? Well considering that you have a dog in my opinion you should not have considered moving to an aparment.

babyvee · Joined: 25 Feb 2008 Posts: 5

haven't gone to puppy.com yet because i do not know what to ask, i just wanted to know about debarking. as i've said, i'm a teenager and i have to follow what my parents say and do. she is my dog entirely, thus they are not really involved with her wellbeing. i did not want to move here. but i'm under my parent's care. and pets are allowed, only her bark isn't. or rather, the volume of her bark isn't. she KNOWS the command quiet. but even so, however seldom, is still very very loud. nobody has heard her and i guess nobody really gets my frustration cos they've never gotten warning letters. so nevermind.

Dr Dunker · Joined: 02 Jun 2006 Posts: 466 Location: Puchong,Selangor

Debarking is a touchy topic, as a vet i don't do it or ever recommend people to have it done...BUT how many of you out there have owned an adult schnauzer in a condo. If you had, then by all means one can harp about cruelty but if not i suggest being a little understanding. If the above owner wanted to be cruel i think she would have left her dog in the old house for her to fend for her self...like so many b@$#@&d$ have done.
Abit of topic, but my point is there are lots more issues as far as animal cruelty goes, debarking dogs is a small matter. The trick is to find a vet that knows how to do it and do it well. I am not ashamed to say that i have never done one nor to i intend to do it (that's just me), but lets not lose the big picture. (yep, i am a bit unorthodox in my views, wait till one hears my views on dog fighting! ;P)
Babyvee, i am sorry i cant help you much as far as debarking goes, have you found out what your dog seem to want to bark at?

acsyen · Joined: 10 Jan 2008 Posts: 94

Dr dunker is right. And also you have not answered my question. What is she barking at. Just fyi i rescue and rehome dogs and I have about 15 in my house. Some hounds too. Can you imagine how the barking will affect the neighbourhood? I also am terrified if they start to bark. Hounds especially have irritating howling type of bark. What if someone complain and that's it.. All the rescued dogs might have to be sent to SPCA and they might be put to sleep.

I know how you feel that's why I am asking you to find the cause of the barking. If I were to debark all of them I will never be able to repent from this sin for the rest of my life. It's already a stepping stone that she knows what is quiet. Once you get to know the cause then work a way out to eliminate the cause..

babyvee · Joined: 25 Feb 2008 Posts: 5

hi y'all and thanks. there seems to be a number of causes for her barking, as ive been observing her for the past day or so. like, when i go out for my classes, and then i come back and as i'm opening the door, she'll bark. when an insect flies past her, she'll paw at the air and bark.. when a lizard runs across the wall, she'll bark.. when i talk to my parents or siblings (in a normal toned voice, mind you), she'll bark.. when she runs past a mirror, she'll stop to bark at herself for a few minutes until we tell her to keep quiet. there were a few more but these are the ones i found the cutest so yeah, i don't quite know how to eliminate these causes.. :/

acsyen · Joined: 10 Jan 2008 Posts: 94

you can always keep the mirrors away. From your reply i can see that she is seeking attention. Doesn't mean that you find it cute then you can let her have her own way. Here are some solutions. The moment you walk in tell her to keep quiet. When she stops only you pet her. If not ignore her till she stops. She'll get the message soon. As for the flies and lizards put her on a collar n leash her. Let those insects go around or run past the moment she barks say quiet or better still just jerk herand say quiet. You need to do this more often to practice with her till she get used to seeing this. Take her for more walk and let her bond with nature more. Play with her more so that she won't get bored and try to pick on these insects. good luck to you and let me know if you need more help.

filet0fish · Joined: 13 Jul 2007 Posts: 30 Location: Pee Jay

i'm sorry, but i have nothing good to say about "dog debarking" as well.

i absolutely agree with acsyen that debarking a dog is cruel to the animal. dogs are meant to bark. and again, i'm sorry, but i have to agree with acsyen again... why move into a condo where everyone knows that dogs are the least welcomed in a condo resident?

correction is the way to do it right.

my younger girl used to bark alot! alot of correction and training has been done. and i'm proud to say that my girl don't bark that often anymore. she still barks when she's excited; like when the girls' friends come visit them, when my young girl sees her boyfriend. but at least, when we ask her to be 'quiet', she understands now.

Dr Dunker · Joined: 02 Jun 2006 Posts: 466 Location: Puchong,Selangor

Sad to say that we don't live in a black or white world...the term "cruelty" Is used wayyyyyy to often in ANY website or debate.
I may not agree with debarking being a primary solution but as I said before, if one had a schnauzer in an apartment, only then one will understand.
If your younger girl is a husky then I must say in a barking contest a Schnauzer makes your Snow kid look like a armature (this i know coz, in my line of work i have delt with more huskies and schnauzers then most avrage people). AND to top it off (very sorry babyvee) training a Schnauzer is very very different to training a husky. I had better luck with cats!!! Ok I am making Bukit Bendera look like Mount Everest but one gets the picture.
There are people in some countries who view keeping a husky, breed to withstand sub zero temperatures, in this country cruel, you may not agree or may even bristle at the thought but these people have a point, and so would you as well i am sure. So you get what i am saying about doing the Michael Jackson (black and white). I wish soooo much life was that simple. If you do this then you are cruel and if you do that you are a moron and if you do these then you are an angel. From a vet's point, ew don have the luxury to see things in that manner. The curse of being bogged down with too much information.

Sorry admin way off topic. I think acsyen have hit the nail on the head. He/she will be of better help then me.

Also for every one out there, sometimes the choice of living in an apartment complex or a landed property is NOT in a dog owners hands. As she said she is a teen so I don't think she have very much to say about the situation.
.Just a note, i am sure some of you out there have read some of my post where i vehemently condemn debarking being cruel and all, and i still stand by it. but i dont think it should be thrown out of the table coz i would rather see a dog well taken care off then a barky dog in a pound awaiting an unknown fate. Trust me there are sikos out here willing to do that. So i do tend to support the lesser of two or more evils. BUT that's just me. I do not speak for the entire vet community.

filet0fish · Joined: 13 Jul 2007 Posts: 30 Location: Pee Jay

of course Dr Dunker... not everything is what i or you would like it to be.

with regards to a barking dog, it doesn't matter if the dog is a Husky or a Schnauzer. they bark, means they bark. and i believe babyvee's doggy doesn't bark all the time and for no reason whatsoever. only when she is excited about something (at least that's what babyvee found out).

different dog requires different patience in training. and the key word here is "patience".

if i can train my younger girl to be "quiet" on demand, i'm sure babyvee can do that too with her Schnauzer.

i don't live in an apartment, but i do know of a friend who bought a house on purpose for her 4 dogs because she was being thrown out of the apartment where she was living in. MPPJ camped outside her unit waiting for her to come home to confiscate her dogs. lucky thing was we all helped out and kept her dogs for her while she quickly move out into a rented property before her house was ready.

that is an extreme case, i would say. but apartment/condo dwellers should know what are the do's and don'ts of living in an apartment/condo. and since babyvee is just a teenager, i understand that it is not her intention to move perhaps. but still, there are other ways of correcting a dog besides surgical-correction.

also, with regards on the point that keeping a Husky in our country is cruel. i used to think so too. until i read more about Huskies. i don't think i have ever found an article that says that Siberian Huskies must only be kept in cold countries. one must first understand the breed before preparing themselves to be owned by one. there are many Huskies in the Americas and in many European countries. and if one can put 2 and 2 together, they'll soon find that these countries have more drastic heat in their summers compared to our heat here.

Huskies have double coat. so does a Golden Retriever and a Pomeranian. and these breeds are well received in our country despite the heat factor. yes - we will be compromising the density and thickness of their coat if we keep them outdoors. but all in all, they are just fine in our country. with shade and lots of water, they'll be just fine roaming in the garden.

the one thing that i find keeping Huskies in our country a cruelty is when people buy them home to guard their houses. and when their Huskies don't do so, they throw them out of the door!

i'm sorry for being way out of topic admin. do move our posts around if you need to. :)

Dr Nat · Joined: 07 Dec 2005 Posts: 1834 Location: Klang Valley

Here's my 2 cents about debarking:

If you were living in the UK with a similar problem, where debarking surgery is ILLEGAL. Then what would you do?

I had a dog that loves to jump on people all the time, especially, when I just returned from work. Is chopping off its legs an option to stop it from jumping?

In my opinion, if debarking remains one of the available options for pet owners to solve the problem, then it will continue to be 'the easiest way out'. Many behavioural problem can be solved by training, but the process of the training will be long and requires lots of patience (more so for a 'slow' dog). For example, I solved my dog's jumping behaviour by refusing to greet it until it stops jumping. It took a while, but now it gets the message.

So, to be humane, leave the debarking surgery for the very last choice (as opposed to beating/torturing it as punishment) - better still if its not treated as a choice at all. The surgery is irreversible. And in many cases, doesn't even solve the irritating noise problem.